Depleted Uranium: Here, There and Everywhere

Major Doug Rokke interviewed by Dennis Bernstein

May 2003
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BERNSTEIN: You're listening to Flash Points on KPFA radio. We're talking to Doug Rokke. He's among other things a military health physicist. He's still in the United States military and apparently, you're telling us things, Doug Rokke, that the US military would not really want you to share publicly. Tell us why you're doing this and is there a backlash for this?

ROKKE: Well, I was specifically tasked by a direct order from Central Command, which means that General Schwarzkopf directed me to clean up the DU mess. In 1994, I was given a specific task and as the director of the depleted uranium project to ensure the safety and the healthy environmental cleanup of the DU mess. I'm an Army officer who will finish my job. That's my responsibility as an American citizen, as an Army officer, and as a man that answers to God.

... uranium munitions have been fired extensively, not only in Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, but [also in]... the Balkans... Puerto Rico... Okinawa ... and many other places.

The retaliation has been huge and it continues to be huge, not only against me and other scientists who did the work but any physician that reports what they have seen and tries to ensure that medical care is provided for all uranium munitions exposures. We have to remember and understand that nobody in the United States can possess even a half-pound of solid uranium-238. They cannot dispose of even a half-pound of solid uranium-238 in any location other than a licensed, secured facility. You cannot do that. However, the United States is deliberately, willfully, because this is an extremely effective combat weapon, throwing hundreds if not thousands of tons in combat areas around the world, refused to provide the medical care as required by numerous directives, and refused to clean up uranium contamination as required by Army regulation in numerous laws.

BERNSTEIN: So what you're saying, sort of, if you flip this a little bit, is that the United States military simply wouldn't be able to use this material, which now is a key part of their forward fighting force, unless they —

ROKKE: I would like to read, direct quote, the Los Alamos memorandum that was sent to me in March of 1991. And I'm going to read this verbatim because I think it's extremely important to understand and I'm going to read it very slowly. "Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, New Mexico, 1 March 1991. Subject: The effectiveness of depleted uranium penetrators. There is a relatively small amount of lethality data per uranium penetrators, either the tank-fired long version or the Gowey 8 round fired from the A10 close air support aircraft. The recent war has likely multiplied the number of DU rounds fired at targets by orders of magnitude. It is believed that DU penetrators were very effective against Iraqi armor. However, assessments of such will have to be made. There has been and continues to be a concern regarding the impact of DU on the environment. Therefore, if no one makes a case where the effectiveness of DU on the battlefield, DU rounds may become politically unacceptable and thus be deleted from the arsenal. If DU penetrators prove their worth during our recent combat activities, then we should assure their future existence (until something better is developed) through service DOD proponency. If proponency is not guarded, it is possible that we stand to lose a valuable combat capability. I believe we should keep this sensitive issue in mind whenever director action reports are written. Respectfully, Colonel Z (?)."

BERNSTEIN: In other words, if they don't lie to the public and they find out what a nightmare this is, they won't be able to use it so they will keep lying.

ROKKE: Absolutely. Now, another memorandum that I received at the same time, simultaneously from the United States Army's Defense Nuclear Agency. Subject: Depleted Uranium Ammunition. I'm going to read a direct quote from this. "As explosive ordinance disposal ground combat units and civil populations of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq come increasingly in contact with DU ordinance, we must prepare to deal with the potential problems. Toxic war souvenirs, political furor, and post-conflict cleanup are only some of the issues that must be addressed. Alpha particles, uranium oxide dust from expended rounds is a health concern, but beta particles and fragments from intact rounds is a serious health threat with a possible exposure rate of 200 millirads per hour on contact."

The United States and Great Britain have made a conscious decision to take radioactive waste that they could not dispose of legally in their own nation, and spread it across the battlefields of other nations, and refuse to do medical care and refuse to clean up the environment.

BERNSTEIN: Again, Doug Rokke, please tell us more specifically how you yourself have come under attack for trying to get this information out to the public.

ROKKE: The US Army, for whatever reason, gave me the responsibility to develop the procedures and identify the risks and hazards. They made me their expert. When I did the research and put my recommendations in, they didn't like it. Again, the Los Alamos memorandum which I read. And as a consequence, my life ended after I spoke up. Jobs, much less the health and trying to get medical care from the Department of Veteran Affairs and the military, has been extremely difficult — not only for myself but anybody else that's speaks up. It's very simple. The United States and Great Britain have made a conscious decision to take radioactive waste that they could not dispose of legally in their own nation, and spread it across the battlefields of other nations, and refuse to do medical care and refuse to clean up the environment.

BERNSTEIN: Have you ever been personally threatened, intimidated, have you been told that you will be given a dishonorable discharge?

ROKKE: I'm still completing the direct order that I was given to complete the mess. But yes, I've been threatened, yeah. I mean it's real simple. That happens, that's a regular basis. One of the things we've done when we do press reports or interviews, Department of Defense officials have come on and say that we never did the work, we never did the findings. However, the documents all verify that we did. Most recently, what we have found is and other individuals (and I) involved in this, that our records at the National Records Center at AR Presscom in St. Louis, MO have disappeared.

BERNSTEIN: Is it true that you attempted to go to Vieques and confirm or verify the use of depleted uranium against I guess, if you will, a civilian population that lives near the bombing range there?

ROKKE: In February of 1999, the US military did use uranium munitions down in Vieques in preparation to go into Kosovo. Not a question, confirmed. I attempted to get through the Deputy Secretary of Defense cleanup and medical care provided for them and I was unable to do it. They refused to do it. I personally have gone down to Vieques, Puerto Rico. I have been onsite, I've participated in the medical investigations one-on-one with physicians where they did an assessment of me and my health effects with known uranium exposures, with the residents down there, and the physician verified that the same health effects from the same exposures occur. The contamination is extensive. And we were unable, and they're still working on Vieques, to get the cleanup — which you'll see in Vieques there are a lot of things in the incidents in Vieques, the government and wire stories state, well, it's all about dropping a few bombs off the target. Well, yeah, that happened too but that was total carelessness. But what they don't talk about is the extensive use of uranium munitions and other chemical and biological warfare materials on that island for 47 some odd years.

... We can't clean it up and we don't have the medical knowledge to take care of the casualties that result.

Today in war, as we did in Gulf War I, in that area's toxic wasteland, you blow up an infrastructure, you release all the hazardous materials associated with that city, a country, industry, agriculture, medicine and everything else. You destroy the water supplies. You get the sandstorms up there, which individuals should be wearing respiratory protection for because just sand in itself, breathed into the lungs and the eyes, causes serious health effects. And then they use uranium munitions. Today the technology of war has gotten to a point where, as we know now from numerous engagements, you can't clean up the environmental mess and the medical care has not been provided. And even the medical care that they provide is basically treat the symptoms, rather than trying to treat and cure the illnesses. Ladies and gentlemen, you must know that the Gulf War I casualty rate is not the 766 that's published in the World Almanac. The US Department of Veteran Affairs, in a report issued September of last year, verified that over 221, 000 Gulf War I veterans are now permanently disabled due to service in the Gulf region from August of 1990 through May of 2002. We know that number's low because myself and others that have got care have still not been included in those numbers, and the Department of Veteran Affairs has also acknowledged and verified that well over 10,000 of our nation's finest sons and daughters have died as a consequence of Gulf War exposures.

BERNSTEIN: Finally, you consider yourself a patriot, you are still in the military. What would your advice be to young men, young women enlisting now? What would you tell your own child if they wanted to do service for the United States government, would you tell them don't go because you're going to get exposed in a way that is incurable?

... Ladies and gentlemen, you must know that the Gulf War I casualty rate is not the 766 that's published in the World Almanac. The US Department of Veteran Affairs, in a report issued September of last year, verified that over 221,000 Gulf War I veterans are now permanently disabled due to service in the Gulf region from August of 1990 through May of 2002..

ROKKE: Well, first off they need to have adequate training and education, combat education and training. Okay, to survive in combat. They must have equipment that's functional and operational. All the defective gas masks that have been confirmed by the United States General Accounting Office must be replaced. All the defective mop suits, chemical protective clothing, must be replaced. Medical care must be in place and put there. In a recent congressional (hearings), last week, chaired by Christopher Chase, they verified that the military is not providing the medical care for the troops now or prior to deployment. And we know it's close to a quarter of a million individuals that served in Gulf War I that are sick and dying across this nation and all of them sick and dying across the world, that medical care is not provided. The veteran, as in all other wars, has been abandoned because of the cost and the liability issues. This is not just liability for a handful of American warriors. This is liability because the health and environmental effects of war affect everybody, not only immediately, but for years down the road. We can't clean it up and we don't have the medical knowledge to take care of the casualties that result. So anybody's going to go in the military today, you better think about what the results are, and then you need to make the choice.

BERNSTEIN: And why haven't you yourself resigned?

ROKKE: Because as a military officer I can still make a difference. My intent is to finish the job for God and the citizens of the world, to protect our troops, to ensure medical care is provided, to ensure that combat readiness is the ultimate, and to make sure that this never happens again.

BERNSTEIN: Doug Rokke, military man, expert in depleted uranium, health physicist, we thank you very much for this very important information and for joining us on Flashpoints.

ROKKE: Thank you again, Dennis.